Your reply is lame, Evan. "Also; I have no resentment toward Marxists and I never said anything to that effect. What I resent is dogmatism, dishonesty, provocateurism and beligerance. " You dare to talk to me about belligerence and dishonesty? You are lying even as you write. Who is attacking who out of nowhere, who demeans and ridcules who, using racist methods, and does so repeatedly. Your modus operandi sickens me. All the more so in this case, since you cannot, of course, uphold your claim that I was scowling at my own comrades, since you have no backing whatsoever that anyone in that action was my "recruit," and since your grandfather has nothing to do with the events that transpired, except in your private imagination. RR --- In NewPacifica@yahoogroups.com, evan davis <evan@i...> wrote: > Jim Dingman was shouting and red-faced, sure enough - but he was > seated at the time - hardly a "threat". He was shouting a question about > some apparently un-accunted-for funds at WBAI where the financial > record-keeping has been dubious at best - even according to Pacifica's CFO. > The demands your little group presented were, as I said > "rhetorical", though there were several that I would fully support ( > training and programming favoring people of color, meetimngs to be held > in accessible facilities, etc.) and at least one that I strongly object > to ( un-accountable "election councils" to pressure and cajole the > election coordinators - that's my read knowing the peoople involved) - > but that was all beside the point. I spoke with some of your recruits > after that flare-up. Their issues are quite legitimate in my view and > their convictions are strongly held. That they have mis-placed their > loyalties in foillowing you and Mimi and Radford will lead to certain > disenchantment down the road but I hope they are not so alienated that > they withdraw their energies entirely. The fact is that the issues they > raised - and which were stated earlier in the Anti-Racism working group > presentation at the Berkeley iPNB meeting you refered to are goals that > I espoused long before you voiced them. The fact that the majority of > people who helped you draft that original statement in Bewrkeley now > want nothing to do with you and supported "Draft B" is evidence of your > mercurial dishonesty and controling nature. That you took to berating > them and labeling them "racists" and "neo-fascists" shows just how deep > your comprehension of "solidarity" runs - likewise your appreciation for > the Pacifica mission. > Also; I have no resentment toward Marxists and I never said anything > to that effect. What I resent is dogmatism, dishonesty, provocateurism > and beligerance. Some who claim subscription to "Marxism" exhibit those > traits as do a few like yourself who no organization, Marxist or > otherwise would have as members. > Evan Davis > > Rafael Renteria wrote: > > >Evan once told me that he'd grown up as a red diaper baby, and that he > >had, for that reason, a great deal of resentment toward marxists. I > >took his comments at face value that night in Berkeley more than a > >year ago, although I assumed, I think naturally enough, that all this > >had a litle something to do with his personal antipathy toward me. I > >hadn't thought much of it since. > > > >Now it seems clear enough. Evan flashed on a powerful image of someone > >he loved, and it seems, in part was repelled by, in the midst of a > >rather heated situation in NY, and has decided to replay that personal > >drama here for our edification, with all the typical elements of a > >psychodrama, not the least of which is, of course, projection. > > > >How odd. At a moment when Jim Dingeman was practicaly spewing saliva > >in my face in his outrage at our protest, and jockeying himself > >physically to appear close enough to the edge of violence as to seem > >"intimidating," Evan assumes that a scowl on my part portrays > >contempt for my comrades. All he could apparently see was the memories > >in his own mind, not the obvious features of the scene before him. > > > >For me, there is no surprise in this whatsoever. I have grown used to > >this kind of thing by now as an example of the kind of pathology and > >projection that one can expect from those who are in denial about the > >realities of racism in our movement, and who have moved forward to > >institutionalize that racism in Pacifica's bylaws, betraying the very > >mission of the network. > > > >Evan of course missed one of the central points we were making in our > >protest - that the Race and Nationality guidlelines (now policy) of > >the Pacifica Foundation had been neglected to the great detriment of > >the movement and to the struggle of oppressed groups for justice. > > > >Had they not been ignored, the kind of dialog the mission demands > >around issues of racism could have occurred in a much different venue > >than in the venom filled ambience of these listservs, and in much more > >compassionate and less warlike terms, and the impact of such dialog > >might have been dramatic in terms of its results vis a vis the bylaws. > > > >That Evan has sought to ignore the content of the protest itself, and > >of the demands it raised, is also not surprising. When Miguel > >Maldonado had his time to make a counterstatement at the mike, he said > >not a word about the content of the demands - and focused on his > >issues with some of the individuals who were part of the action, not > >entirely unlike Evan here. > > > >But then, what can one expect? That's been the modus operandi of Draft > >B supporters from the outset - to attack and defame, while avoiding > >substantive debate. > > > >>From Spooner's efforts to have the iPNB vote on Draft B without > >discussion at the LA meeting last Spring to the fact that the iPNB was > >never able to seek legal counsel post- Michigan due to Spooner's > >incessant appeal to the authority of the court, to the reality that > >Draft B never passed either the iPNB or the LABs, but was rammed down > >our throats by a judge -- all this is consistent with the fear > >tactics, personalistic schoolyard politics and refusal to engage that > >typifies the behavior of the obedient and rigid character structure of > >those in denial of what is simple and obvious (as Wilhelm Reich put > >it), and right before their eyes. > > > >Thank you for the psychology lesson, Evan, but no, thank you. > > > >Rafael > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- In NewPacifica@yahoogroups.com, Evan Davis <evan@i...> wrote: > > > > > >>Now that lieutenant Radford and marshal Renteria have apparently > >> > >> > >merged like a > > > > > >>caricature in a Dario Fo play I have the convenience of addressing > >> > >> > >them both at > > > > > >>the same time. > >> My grandfather was a self-proclaimed "Marxist" and while no > >> > >> > >Black person or > > > > > >>Native American or Latino/a ever called him a racist I can tell you from > >>personal experience that Marxism per se never had a less effective > >> > >> > >ptoselytizer > > > > > >>since Stalin. My grandfather was, among other things a rigid > >> > >> > >stubborn insecure > > > > > >>person who felt a life-long compulsion to defend his world view > >> > >> > >against all > > > > > >>comers and all new information. My political education came in spite > >> > >> > >of rather > > > > > >>than at the dais of my grandfather. And though a hardly half the man > >> > >> > >in stature > > > > > >>( in all ways apparent) than my grandfather Rafael reminds me of him > >> > >> > >but without > > > > > >>invoking any familial affection. > >> Despite all of his un-flattering qualities my grandfather was a > >> > >> > >man of > > > > > >>conviction and compassion. He intimated to me late in his life that > >> > >> > >he regretted > > > > > >>having missed the opportunity to have volunteered with the Abraham > >> > >> > >Lincoln > > > > > >>brigades. He was present at several of the demonstrations and events > >> > >> > >William > > > > > >>Mandel lists in his autobiography and invariably on the same side as > >> > >> > >Mandel - at > > > > > >>least until Mandel became disenchanted with the direction of the Soviet > >>political system under cold-war bureaucratic rule. However, like > >> > >> > >Rafael my > > > > > >>grandfather was an emotionally fractured man given to great vanity > >> > >> > >and no small > > > > > >>degree of dishonesty when it suited him. > >> I bring this up now because the topic of this thread resembles > >> > >> > >one of the > > > > > >>last political discussions I ever had with my grandfather that > >> > >> > >touched on > > > > > >>"Marxism". Only in our case it was not the systemic function of > >> > >> > >racism we were > > > > > >>debating but the institutionalized subjugation of women. > >> Both of us acknowledged that all the patterns of oppression > >> > >> > >were constructed > > > > > >>by and reinforced by and in the service of capitalism - like > >> > >> > >mercantilism and > > > > > >>feudalism before it but my grandfather insisted that once the means of > >>production were in the rightful hands of the proletariat justice > >> > >> > >would sweep the > > > > > >>nation and only meaningless superficial prejudices would remain of > >> > >> > >what we once > > > > > >>called "racism" ( or in this case "sexism"). In other words; change > >> > >> > >the system > > > > > >>and the culture will transform itself accordingly. This, I believe, > >> > >> > >was a > > > > > >>reactionary argument on his part that seemed more like a defense > >> > >> > >against Maoism > > > > > >>than about anything we were talking about. Nevertheless I argued > >> > >> > >that sexual, > > > > > >>racial, ethnic and geographic divisions artificially imposed on the > >> > >> > >working > > > > > >>class to preclude proletarian unity had left deeper scars and that > >> > >> > >the emerging > > > > > >>ideologies of liberation that conflated racial, sexual, ethnic and > >> > >> > >geographic > > > > > >>pride with emancipation and whole-person-ness were a necessary > >> > >> > >development and > > > > > >>not, as my grandfather argued, a bourgeois indulgence. > >> My grandfather would look at Black and Xicano/a nationalism and the > >>separatist wing of the feminist movement and regard them as > >> > >> > >counter-productive. > > > > > >>He was only somewhat troubled by the apparent lack of Black, > >> > >> > >Latino/a, Native > > > > > >>American and female leadership in his old-school revolutionary > >> > >> > >circles. I, who > > > > > >>had been rather wounded in my encounters with feminist separatism - > >> > >> > >like losing > > > > > >>a lover to some cult religion, had come to terms with it all and no > >> > >> > >longer > > > > > >>begrudged these seemingly sideways steps on the path to freedom. Yet > >> > >> > >somehow > > > > > >>when in the company of what I encompassingly call "liberation > >> > >> > >nationalists" > > > > > >>neither I nor my grandfather were ever un-welcome. I watched > >> > >> > >strong-minded Black > > > > > >>folks and Latino/s who were bristling with anger and who seldom > >> > >> > >spoke with white > > > > > >>folks at all have heated arguments with my grandfather ( and > >> > >> > >friendlier less > > > > > >>argumentative encounters with me) and yet never once lose sight of > >> > >> > >the fact that > > > > > >>we all wanted the same thing - that their visions of freedom and > >> > >> > >world equality > > > > > >>and justice placed them on the same side of the battlements and had > >> > >> > >them singing > > > > > >>the same revolutionary ballads. Paul Robeson was a close friend of my > >>grandfather's. That's the kind of family I grew up in. Maybe it > >> > >> > >didn't hurt that > > > > > >>both my grandfather and my mother were/are darker-skinned than most > >> > >> > >"brown" and > > > > > >>"red" people I know but the point is that most people in the greater > >> > >> > >struggle > > > > > >>regardless of "race" sensed in my grandfather an ally and not > >> > >> > >someone who had to > > > > > >>be educated or condescended to - even on those occasions when he > >> > >> > >himself tended > > > > > >>to condescend. > >> Clearly in this modern day we all understand that the > >>predjudicially-defined "isms" that accompany systems of oppression > >> > >> > >are separate > > > > > >>yet connected problems that require unique though integrated > >> > >> > >solutions. Even my > > > > > >>grandfather admitted as much in his waning years - and it was then > >> > >> > >that he bagan > > > > > >>to regard the "liberation nationalist" movements with certain affection. > >> My grandfather's personal journey in which his shallowness and > >> > >> > >vanity stood > > > > > >>in sharp contrast to his capacity for anaytical thought and his > >> > >> > >great political > > > > > >>passion for the cause of justice was really quite easy to comprehend > >> > >> > >and while > > > > > >>he was emotionally dis-honest ( he had a 40+ year affair with > >> > >> > >another woman ) > > > > > >>people who knew him generally saw the whole picture and took him as > >> > >> > >he was - > > > > > >>usually because they believed in the values he espoused and > >> > >> > >advocated even if he > > > > > >>didn't practice them seamless in his personal life. People intuitively > >>understood that while he was stubborn and annoying much of the time > >> > >> > >when push > > > > > >>came to shove he genuinely believed in the equality of all people > >> > >> > >and that he > > > > > >>committed his entire life ( outside of the bedroom, at least) to > >> > >> > >working for a > > > > > >>better world that reflected that belief. > >> Here, however I have watched this man, Rafael, who has my > >> > >> > >grandfather's > > > > > >>stubbornness and apparently none of his integrity speak > >> > >> > >dis-respectfully to > > > > > >>people of all races in response to apparent political disagreements. > >> > >> > >I have > > > > > >>watched him rush to comfort women of color and offer to stand with > >> > >> > >them as they > > > > > >>take political stands - only to abandon them when they refuse to > >> > >> > >allow him to > > > > > >>ride shot-gun on the coat-tails of their initiatives. I have seen > >> > >> > >him claim to > > > > > >>speak for as well as from the perspective of oppressed people of > >> > >> > >color only to > > > > > >>later hurl such racist terms as "Tio Taco" at people who decline to > >> > >> > >accept his > > > > > >>authoritarian "leadership". > >> In New York I watched Rafael and his handler, "Leslie Radford" > >> > >> > >orchestrate a > > > > > >>virtual take-over of the iPNB meeting involving a handful of people > >> > >> > >of color who > > > > > >>presented a number of rhetorical demands most of which sounded perfectly > >>reasonable in the absence of specific instructions for > >> > >> > >implementation - but the > > > > > >>effect of which was to pre-empt the scheduled public comment period > >> > >> > >and to > > > > > >>preclude the adoption of a time-line for elections at Pacifica. I > >> > >> > >stood right in > > > > > >>the middle of that with Armando Gudino - both of us recording the > >> > >> > >whole charade > > > > > >>and I watched as Rafael marshaled "our (his) people" to line up in a > >> > >> > >specific > > > > > >>order. The look on his face was so clearly one of disgust that the > >> > >> > >people he had > > > > > >>apparently coached had fallen in to dis-array and had not acted > >> > >> > >precisely > > > > > >>according to the pre-ordained plan. I saw that same look on my > >> > >> > >grandfather's > > > > > >>face once - when I had proven a political point in an argument with > >> > >> > >him and he > > > > > >>was forced to admit that he had been in error. It was the look of a > >> > >> > >frightened > > > > > >>and angry man who suddenly felt completely alone. The difference was > >> > >> > >that that > > > > > >>to me that man was my grandfather and I loved him. To others he was > >> > >> > >a real > > > > > >>revolutionary and a comrade despite his intractible faults whereas > >> > >> > >with Rafael I > > > > > >>see no record of actual work, no consistent commitment to > >> > >> > >revolutionary and > > > > > >>humanitarian ideals and no redeeming qualities to warrant even a > >> > >> > >fraction of the > > > > > >>patience people of vision and integrity - and also his grandson > >> > >> > >showed my > > > > > >>grandfather. With Rafael that terrible and pathetic expression that once > >>horrified me when it gripped my grandfather's face illicits no > >> > >> > >sympathy. Instead > > > > > >>it describes the whole. With Rafael, I have come to conclude, that's > >> > >> > >really all > > > > > >>there is. Sad, perhaps, but not worth a moment's hesitation. > >> Evan Davis > >> > >> > >> > >>Leslie Radford wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Michael Lubin Wrote: > >>> > >>>"> Racism and sexism are not systems at all. > >>> > >>> > >Colonialism/post-colonialism > > > > > >>>>and patriarchy are systems in their own right, as is capitalism." > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>Well, Michael's post demonstrates, if nothing eles, how wide the gulf > >>>is between us. > >>> > >>>One has to wonder whether Jim Crow was a system, > >>> > >>>whether Apartheid was a system, > >>> > >>>whether the reservation system is a system, > >>> > >>>whether the prison system is a system > >>>and whether the mass, virtually genocidal rate of > >>>incarceration of men of color is part of that system, > >>> > >>>whether colonialism, which Michael recognizes as systemic, > >>>is part of a system of racism, (and not the other way around, since > >>>slavery was not an aspect of colonialism per se) > >>> > >>>whether the "War On Drugs" is actually a systemic war > >>>on African Americans, Chicanos and immigrants, > >>> > >>>whether police occupation and terrorization of > >>>communities of peoples of color is sytemic, > >>> > >>>whether there is a relationship between the systematic, > >>>colonial subjugation of Puerto Rico and racist oppression > >>>of Boricuas in the US, > >>> > >>>whether the robbing of land and dispossession of languages > >>>for Natives, Chicanos, Puerto Ricans, Hawiians and others > >>>is systemic, > >>> > >>>whether Ghettos and Barrios are systemic, > >>> > >>>whether the radical imbalances int he quality of education for > >>>different groups is systemic > >>> > >>>whether the concentration of people of color > >>>in the ranks of the poor is sytemic > >>> > >>>whether the presence of white men to the exclusion > >>>of all other groups in the top positions of authority > >>>in the US is systemic > >>> > >>>or, > >>> > >>>Whether Michael is right, and all this is not systemic, and just a > >>>matter and a result of (individual? - not systemic?) discrimination > >>>that reduces to a (now irrelevant?) "legacy" of colonialism. > >>> > >>>Then we should ask ourselves, of course, about the nature and meaning > >>>of Draft B, in light of our understanding of these matters. > >>> > >>>Rafael > >>> > >>> > >>>--- In NewPacifica@yahoogroups.com, "Caveman" <mlubin1@m...> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>--- In NewPacifica@yahoogroups.com, "Rafael Renteria" > >>>><renteria22@y...> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>Speaking as a Marxist, I find the kind of stock Marxist answer > >>>>>Mitchell uses below objectionable. > >>>>> > >>>>>What seems to elude so many white marxists is that racism, like > >>>>> > >>>>> > >sexism > > > > > >>>>>is a subsystem of capitalist oppression, with its own dynamics, and > >>>>>that those dynamics have to be overthrown on their own terms. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>Racism and sexism are not systems at all. Colonialism/post-colonialism > >>>>and patriarchy are systems in their own right, as is capitalism. > >>>>Arguably, colonialism is a subsystem of capitalism, though a > >>>>historical argument that the reverse is true is not inconceivable > >>>>(though quite weak, IMO). More correctly, capitalism and colonialism > >>>>are inter-conditioning, intertwined systems. Capitalism could not > >>>>have obtained enough primitive capital to achieve its takeoff point > >>>>without colonialism, but colonialism, post-colonialism, > >>>>neo-colonialism, or whatever you want to call it, is now clearly the > >>>>junior partner. Capitalism is the fundamental engine of the two. > >>>> > >>>>Patriarchy is a whole other kettle of fish. Although it has been > >>>>massively revamped to fit it in with capitalism, it is in origin an > >>>>independent system that predates capitalism. Medieval and ancient > >>>>societies, for example, were clearly patriarchal in the broad sense, > >>>>though the forms that kinship relations and gender ideologies took > >>>>were very different from what we see today. > >>>> > >>>>Racism is a form of discrimination that is, in origin, a legacy of > >>>>colonialism. Sexism is a form of discrimination that derives from > >>>>patriarchy. Colonialism and patriarchy are much more powerful > >>>>concepts than racism and sexism. > >>>> > >>>>Thinking systemically in this way may seem more complicated, but it > >>>>actually makes things much easier when you want to do any concrete > >>>>analysis of actual power relations. You can't, for example, explain > >>>>power plays within the upper class -- which often have tremendous > >>>>repercussions -- by saying that nearly all of these people are white, > >>>>upper class, and male. By focusing on the characteristics of > >>>>individuals, identity-based analyses miss the things that truly drive > >>>>social, political, and economic transformation. These include power > >>>>struggles, money grabs, inside connections, different forms of > >>>>exploitation, comeptition and monopoly, and shifts in populations and > >>>>the distributions of resources. > >>>> > >>>>--Michael > >>>> > >>>> > > > > > > > >New Pacifica Working Group > >http://www.egroups.com/group/NewPacifica > >'Save Our Stations!' > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >NewPacifica-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. 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