Part two of my thoughts: We can still have discussions: as long as we understand that we may actually learn something, that the goal is DISCUSSION and not ramming the "correct" view down their throats. CURRENT EXAMPLE: I'm very interested in the government of Iran. I'm also interested in the position of women in all Islamic countries (all countries, period, actually). I CAN say that women in Iran have far more rights than in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc but perhaps fewer than in some of the SE Asian Islamic countries. I think the increasing number of Westerners converting to Islam, and other Western born Muslims have a great contribution to make to Islam in such matters as democratic governance and women's rights. There are all kinds of reform movements and discussions happening inside Islam that a person who has not studied Islam can't understand. Like whether and how much hadith should be relied upon in making Shariah; whether a guy named Abu Hurayah should be removed from the hadith and whether some of Aisha's hadith should be reconsidered and included. Don't know what hadith is? Don't know who Aisha was? Then maybe you don't have enough knowledge to speak out on Islam. I am reluctant to do things that sabotage this internal discussion among Muslims; however I DO reserve the right to speak out if, *after study*, I think there is a human rights violation. You might be surprised to find how many Muslims would agree with a westerner on this or that issue. And I think we have an obligation to try to present our thoughts in a way that will not automatically alienate a Muslim before they even hear what we say. We should speak with respect of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and the Koran. We may or may not regard the Koran as divinely inspired, we may or may not believe in God or the Day of Judgement, and we can even say so, as long as we understand that, whether divine or not, the Prophet and the Koran represent noble efforts to make society more fair and to bring a people who were losing their traditional values of cooperation back to helping one another. We should recognize the amazing accomplishment that Muhammed achieved in ending war between the desert tribes, and the terrible mistreatment he, his wife Khadija and the followers endured to make this happen. Believe me, the average Muslim knows their Koran far better than most American Christians (and especially fundamentalists!) understand the Bible. In fact, the average Muslim understands the BIBLE and the teachings of Jesus better than most Westerners. We should avoid curse words, we should take the time to find the places in the Koran or in the life of Muhammed that support our views, and we should do so inside the whole concept of the ideal spirit of Islam, not just pick something cause we like it. After all, those who advocate the bad things we find in Islamic countries are often relying on one simple saying or part of the Koran out of context. It's a legitimate argument to say something violates the spirit of Islam as long as we know enough to have some idea what that spirit or ideal is. We in the West (including me) support secular government, but we should recognize that we came to that conclusion after 800 years of religious warfare in Europe. We were worn out and sick of all religion. I'm quite curious to see whether a religious democracy can exist and still promote human rights. In theory, if you TRULY followed the principles of Islam, just as if you followed the teachings of Jesus, you should have a government devoted to peace and to protecting the poor and vulnerable. Of course, religion is so personal and interpretation so controversial that it may never work. But let's see. I want to see the Iranians take off and run with their government and let's see where it leads in another 20 or 50 or 100 years. Whatever happens, I would say the Iranian revolution is far from over. Maybe the Iranians themselves will decide that it doesn't work; OR maybe they will provide a model for those people who have found secularism to be a cover for imperialism and the oppression of the poor. You know, I doubt the Iranian Revolution would have happened if the CIA hadn't overthrown Mossadeqh (sp?) the democratically elected president of Iran in the 1950s and installed the Shah. It didn't help things that the U.S. installed and propped up Saddam Hussein in a SECULAR government in Iraq so Iraq would go to war with Iran. If you really want to know more, I suggest reading 'Nine Parts of Desire" (I forget the author) and Karen Armstrong's biography of Muhammed (PBUH) and her book on Islam. Things are REALLY not as simple as you think. At 11:58 AM 5/27/2006, Richard wrote: >To: <NewPacifica@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >From: "Richard" <rsierra7@xxxxxxxxx> >Subject: RE: [NewPacifica] FW: [LAAMN] Neither U.S. Aggression Nor >Theocratic Repression > >Opposing American imperialism is not Cartesian Dualism which doesn't >deny my absolute opposition that imperialism. > >Altaf's opening remark was empty spin...the political right is >patriarchal, not the left which is anti-patriarchy. ><http://www.bartleby.com/61/47/P0114700.html>http://www.bartleby.com/61/47/P0114700.html > >Here again, you fail to respond substantively to my comments. The >core issue remains American imperialism. /R > > >-----Original Message----- >From: NewPacifica@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >[mailto:NewPacifica@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Kevin White >Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 11:16 AM >To: NewPacifica@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >Subject: RE: [NewPacifica] FW: [LAAMN] Neither U.S. Aggression Nor >Theocratic Repression > >I'm sorry, Richard, but everything cannot be broken down into >Cartesian Dualism. (+/-) > >Lorraine and company are not spinning, they are trying to share with >you that political waters sometimes run deep. > >K Camilla Cracchiolo Los Angeles, California ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get to your groups with one click. Know instantly when new email arrives http://us.click.yahoo.com/.7bhrC/MGxNAA/yQLSAA/xYTolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> New Pacifica Working Group http://www.egroups.com/group/NewPacifica 'Save Our Stations!' Yahoo! 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