Hi Stephan, It's not by intention to be elitist. However I have some interesting life experience. College for me was a very strict contest. The testing regiment was barely tolerable. I was a history major and was expected to read eight books for every class: some of them primary sources; histories written by actual eyewitnesses. I do IT work for a national accountancy firm. I meet a lot of young people currently in college. They are taking classes in "writing convincing email." They are failing tests in classes that barely outline history. Their main written language is called texting; a new wildly raw syntax based upon the limitation of typing with just 10 keys. In Europe there is a thing called the trade school. It is not an ignoble thing. It's not classist of me to say that not everyone is as smart as everyone else. It's not classist of me to say that college is not for everyone. Some people don't choose to seek higher education. Yet if you don't, in this country, you can barely make a living. And there's very little alternative training options for those not college bound. And those that are college bound don't have to deal with dumbed down schools. This is not elitism but the natural order of human behavior. Some will go to college. What happens to the ones who don't? I call this compassion. K ----- Original Message ---- From: Kevin White <cuitlacoche1@xxxxxxxxx> To: NewPacifica@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 9:20:04 PM Subject: Re: [NewPacifica] Re: Somebody correct me...didn't Hitler do this...will the uniforms be Brown, or Hi Stephan, It's not by intention to be elitist. However I have some interesting life experience. When I went to college it was a very strict contest. The testing regiment was barely tolerable. I was a history major. We were expected to read eight books for every class: some of them primary sources; histories written by actual eyewitnesses. I do IT work for a national accountancy firm. I meet a lot of young people currently in college. They are taking classes in "writing convincing email." They are failing tests in classes that barely outline history. Their main written language is called texting; a new wildly raw syntax based upon the limitation of typing with just 10 keys. In Europe there is a thing called the trade school. It is not an ignoble thing. It's not classist of me to say that no everyone is as smart as everyone else. It's not classist of me to say that college is not for everyone. Some people don't choose to see higher education. Yet if you don't, in this country, you can barely make a living. There's very little alternative training options for those not college bound. And those that are college bound don't have to deal with dumbed down schools. This is not elitism but the natural order of human behavior. Some will go to college. What happens to the ones who don't? I call this compassion. K ----- Original Message ---- From: stephan <sgeras@mindspring. com> To: NewPacifica@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 8:30:17 PM Subject: Re: [NewPacifica] Re: Somebody correct me...didn't Hitler do this...will the uniforms be Brown, or Kevin: I'm afraid I read your post here with great sadness and some trepidation. Your general outlook seems to be quite elitist, very arrogant and dangerously simplistic. Your note below is profoundly myopic. I cannot support goodness or necessity of military service and particularly as a relief of class differences. Kevin, are you trying to be ironic? It's true that college is only a dream for some, but do you really think that the military is a progressive alternative? :Forget about progressive and forget about gore vidal, who probably wouldn't agree anymore with his second world war yankee doodle dandy cheerleading, what could possibly lead you to believe that young people who can't get to college, or who have no sturctured work would have better chances with the military instead of a trade school?I wonder, if you've gone to, and completed, college because you were driven by something which college could help you with, why are you so picayune? And Kevin, cultural engineering is something that's only succesfull where inroads and infrastructure are not built with the participation of willing citizens; where planning committees decide in secret. And what age are you referring to as "young"? Please explain some of these things to me because I find your statements disturbing. Steppe ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin White To: NewPacifica@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 1:10 PM Subject: Re: [NewPacifica] Re: Somebody correct me...didn't Hitler do this...will the uniforms be Brown, or Yes, national service can be a great thing. I remember Gore Vidal on Dick Cavett extolling its virtues. Again, it is good for young people, particularly at that age, to have some structured work for them to do. It would give them money for college, if they choose, and as long as we're talking about cultural engineering, it would give them money for trade school as well. Not every people should go to college. It's frustrating to them to be in a place where they can't succeed and it bad for the Universities as they have to dumb down college classes so that the folks who shouldn't be there in the first place can understand the classes. The US needs national service and trade schools. Kevin White ----- Original Message ---- From: Frank LeFever <fflefever@yahoo. com> To: NewPacifica@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 12:35:40 AM Subject: [NewPacifica] Re: Somebody correct me...didn't Hitler do this...will the uniforms be Brown, or --- In NewPacifica@ yahoogroups. com, Synthetic Sound <syntheticsound@ ...> wrote: > > Uhh... I think it's contranscend not condescend. Huh? "Contranscend" ? That's a new one on me! Does it have something to do with "Contras"? Contras who transcend the mundane? As for uniformed civilian service: I'm probably the only one here who remembers the CCC. I mean remember them, not remember reading about them. When riding down the highway with my father (he was driving), I saw a bunch of them riding in the back of a truck and exclaimed, "look, daddy--sissy boys!" [Three Cs in a row was a bit too much for me at that age.] The difference between that and what apparently Rangel and Barack are proposing now is, of course, that the CCC program was voluntary, as was the WPA. Both provided work and pay at a time when these were scarce. Jokes were made about WPA guys leaning on their shovels, but they accomplished a lot (tree-planting in South Dakota, according to some old family photos). Quie a few artists (graphic, literary, dramatic, etc.) survived on WPA money also, and left some worthy legacies. For the next decade or two, National Park amenities (shelters, paths, etc.) were monuments to CCC activities (monuments for daily use, not just to look at. --Frank LeFever > > Kevin White wrote: > > > > Condon wrote, "If you read more books, you'd see how the words were > > spelled on the page." > > > > > > > > Hi Chris, > > > > > > > > Thanks for bothering to condescend to me. However, when push comes to > > shove I've probably read more books, and (judging by your single > > interest in only one subject), more substantive books than you've ever > > touched. > > > > > > > > I have a learning handicap called dyslexia. It does hold me back, but > > it also has motivated me to achieve much more than I would have if I > > had only interested myself in 911 conspiracy theory like a > > johnny-one-note such as yourself. > > > > > > > > Now, rather than address my comments like we were in fact in a > > philosophical dialog: which is what I intended; you'd rather pick at > > my somewhat damaged visual skills. Well then; that's okay. > > > > > > > > I'm used to you believing in the ridiculous as it is. Why surprise us > > all now at this late date. > > > > > > > > Kevin White > > > > > > > > PS: Dear Pam, please note that at no time did I just simply say fuck > > you to him even though I'm certainly sure he's been told that before. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Christopher Bayard Condon <lacitizensgrandjur y@...> > > To: NewPacifica@ yahoogroups. com > > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 4:01:33 PM > > Subject: [NewPacifica] Re: Somebody correct me...didn't Hitler do > > this...will the uniforms be Brown, or Black? > > > > --- In NewPacifica@ yahoogroups. com > > <mailto:NewPacifica %40yahoogroups. com>, Kevin White <cuitlacoche1@ ...> > > wrote: > > > > > > I actually like the idea of national service as long as it's not > > military. > > > It not only can be organized into programs like meals on wheels, > > > Big Brother and Big Sister, Teach a child to read, neighborhood > > watches, > > > perhaps even internships on Pacifica stations... > > > > > > This give structure to some young people who may not have had much > > > structure. It gives them something to put on a resume when there was > > > once nothing. It gives young people a real world idea of how to > > survive > > > in the 21st Century. > > > > > > It can be, if done correctly, become a much needed right of > > adulthood. > > > > Kev, > > > > That's a "'rite' of adulthood," not a 'right' of adulthood. I am > > getting a little tired of constantly correcting your spelling. If you > > read more books, you'd see how the words were spelled on the page. > > Sometimes its different from how they just sound. > > > > Bayard > > > > > > > > I wish we did have national service. > > > > > > Kevin White > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: sasha <sasha@> > > > To: sasha <sasha@> > > > Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 10:04:38 PM > > > Subject: [NewPacifica] Somebody correct me...didn't Hitler do > > this...will the uniforms be Brown, or Black? > > > > > > > > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > > Subject: Somebody correct me...didn't Hitler do this...will the > > > uniforms be Brown, or Black? > > > Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:05:37 -0700 > > > From: Chuck > > > > > > > > > Charlie Rangel and Obama's "Civilian Defense > > > Corps" > > > Exurban > > > League > > > July 28, 2008 > > > Remember > > > Obama's plea for a monstrous, over-arching civilian defense corps? > > > Turns out Charlie > > > Rangel wants it as well. > > > Charles Rangel's National Service Act, > > > which is languishing before Congress, provides for a universal draft > > > with two years [service] for virtually all persons aged 18-42, with > > no > > > deferment for college. The purpose of Rangel's bill is: > > > "To require all persons in the United States between > > > the ages of 18 and 42 to perform national service, either as a > > member > > > of the uniformed services or in civilian service in > > > furtherance of the national defense and homeland security . . > > > . ." > > > Here is how the civilian service is described in the bill (sec > > > 102(b)): > > > a civilian capacity that, as determined by the President, promotes > > > the national defense, including national or community service and > > > service related to homeland security. > > > (Emphasis in the original). > > > A government agency that has uniformed personnel who promote > > > homeland security? > > > Why hasn't anyone thought of this before! Let's call it, oh, say, > > > "The United States Military"!! > > > Now all we need is for Obama > > > to meet with the members of this (alleged) "U.S. Military" and see > > > if is these unnecessary products of pork-barrel spending valiant > > > warriors for hope and change are really needed� > > > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ==