Wow Kevin, you too E --- On Tue, 7/15/08, Kevin White <cuitlacoche1@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: From: Kevin White <cuitlacoche1@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: [NewPacifica] Re: Do you have the slightest idea what we should do to solve the problems? To: jdemaegt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, PacificaRadiowaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, NewPacifica@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Cc: LasiewiczN@xxxxxxx, freekpfk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, rocklandfriendsofwbai@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, fulcrumsofchange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 3:27 PM Hi Jim, I don't believe there are enough smart people, with a strong philosophical focus, to be much good for Pacifica. We have a few who play at academics who apparently can stand to have their believe systems questioned. If you dare to question the axioms that take the place of reason at Pacifica, you get called names and told that you're ignorant. For we know for a fact is every slave owner did everything he or she could do to starve and in fact torture and murder their valuable human property. I mean, didn't Alex Haley make a mint off of Roots? Don't we know for a fact that all black and Muslims people believe in equality and the evil white Europeans, who I even in fact believe are rather evil, did all the slave trade by themselves without the assistance of other Africans and the Muslims living in Africa? No, it was the great Satan, the White Masters that did the whole thing. Meanwhile, the African Americans don't need to teach their children to be CPAs, or business owners, or teach them how to pick themselves up by their own bootstraps and start small businesses. We have extremely rich Vietnamese in Houston who made a killing off owning gas stations and convenience stores that now live in $500.000.00 houses in Royal Oaks. Not one of them expect reparations for the Vietnam War. Why would they? Why would they want chump change when their making millions off their business acumen, planning and their hard work. doG helps those who help themselves.. . And Pacifica is so calcified that you can't even question the axioms that they repeat to themselves in place of a critical intellectual understanding of history. Kevin White has questioned a core belief system. He must be, as Dr. LeFever recently wrote, cut out. He must be silenced. How dare he practice the congress of such dangerous ideas among such a bastion of Free Speech? For shame, Pacifica. For shame. Kevin White ----- Original Message ---- From: "jdemaegt@sbcglobal .net" <jdemaegt@sbcglobal. net> To: Kevin White <cuitlacoche1@ yahoo.com>; PacificaRadiowaves@ yahoogroups. com; NewPacifica@ yahoogroups. com Cc: LasiewiczN@aol. com; freekpfk@yahoogroup s.com; rocklandfriendsofwb ai@yahoogroups. com; fulcrumsofchange@ pacificana. org Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 4:19:17 PM Subject: Re: Do you have the slightest idea what we should do to solve the problems? True Kevin - I agree with what you write below. But I ask again - What should be done about it? - Nothing? If Something then WHAT? And I suggest that if a plan to do something about such problems is ever set froth then Pacifica can and MUST indeed be part of that plan. And it my well take a struggle to make Pacifica effective in any real world problem solving plan but such a struggle can be won. But no Plan and no directions about What should be done to solve such problems and the struggle top solve the problems cannot even begin. Kevin - Why don't you set froth some ideas about: "What is to Be Done" about the problems that you describe. A Plan - the very beginnings of a Plan - even some rudimentary ideas about a Plan? Some thoughts about a Plan - what direction do you suggest that we take? Some ideas about the directions to be taken need to be set forth. "What is to be Done" about the problems that you describe? Jim "Can the problems be solved? Si Se Puede" D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin White" <cuitlacoche1@ yahoo.com> To: <PacificaRadiowaves@ yahoogroups. com>; <NewPacifica@ yahoogroups. com> Cc: <LasiewiczN@aol. com>; <freekpfk@yahoogroup s.com>; <PacificaRadiowaves@ yahoogroups. com>; <rocklandfriendsofwb ai@yahoogroups. com>; <fulcrumsofchange@ pacificana. org> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [Fulcrumsofchange] [PacificaRadiowaves ] Re: Do you have theslightest idea what we should talk about? I think Pacifica is lost behind old axioms and doesn't think for itself. Why cry about Simon Legree when there are real downtrodden people standing just outside our front doors who have been throw away like yesterday's garbage. Somehow, in Pacifica parlance, these living breathing people are not the living the nightmare of the noble slave. Modern wage slaves are kept in cages made of unbreakable economic chains. Their families are torn apart not by silent movie villains or the sadists that, in theory, used to run plantations, but by not having enough money to eat, of having the money to get sick. If you get sick, you lose your apartment you pay for by the week. You lose and live on the street and not in a nice thatched hut that you made yourself, but in an open bus stall on some dark street. Now, the homeless have it all over the slaves. The homeless live lives of luxury compared to people who have their clothes, food and housing provided for them. While the slaves suffer eating porrage and the guts left over when the cow is harvested, the homeless feast of the remains of garbage cans and the deep fried goodness of Ramen noodles. The slave obviously, and without any having to even think about it, had it much worse. You see the food and shelter provided for their work were not all that high quality. They are clearly far worse off. Kevin White ----- Original Message ---- From: "jdemaegt@sbcglobal. net" <jdemaegt@sbcglobal. net> To: NewPacifica@ yahoogroups. com Cc: Chris Farrell <cfarrell7@nyc. rr.com>; PacificaRadiowaves@ yahoogroups. com; LasiewiczN@aol. com; rocklandfriendsofwb ai@yahoogroups. com; freekpfk@yahoogroup s.com; fulcrumsofchange@ pacificana. org Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 7:00:03 AM Subject: [PacificaRadiowaves ] Re: Do you have the slightest idea what we should talk about? So Kevin - what is Pacifica doing - and/or what should Pacifica be dong and what is the proper role of Pacifica in any fight to end the "wage slavery" of today? Or is Pacifica not supposed to play any role in that struggle and instead Pacifica should not be involved in "political issues" (assuming that one categorizes struggle against "waged slaver" as a "political issue" ) Or is Pacifica supposed to only be involved in "professional" things and in support of "business"? And shouldn't Pacifica itself be run by "business' and "professional" people? If Pacifica played any role whatsoever in advancing the struggle against "wage slavery" wouldn't Pacifica be in some fashion "anti-business" ? And isn't it true that "business" itself is not bad and that it is just that some people in "business" are good and some people in business are "jerks"? Is the very essence of today's "business" to create and use "wage slaves"? Should Pacifica play any role in trying to create the Change needed to end "wage slavery" or would such a role by Pacifica be anti-"business" . and not "professional" ? Jim "But I am sure that Obama will create the CHANGE that we need to end 'wage slavery". D. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin White To: NewPacifica@ yahoogroups. com Cc: Chris Farrell ; NewPacifica@ yahoogroups. com ; PacificaRadiowaves@ yahoogroups. com ; LasiewiczN@aol. com ; jdemaegt@sbcglobal. net ; rocklandfriendsofwb ai@yahoogroups. com ; freekpfk@yahoogroup s.com ; fulcrumsofchange@ pacificana. org Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 9:29 PM Subject: Re: [NewPacifica] Re: Do you have the slightest idea what you are talking about? "Tragic." And so is it the way we have it today. Now you cannot legally make yourself a thatched roof to live under. There were nights I wish I had a thatched roof. K ----- Original Message ---- From: Joseph Wanzala <wanzala@gmail. com> To: Kevin White <cuitlacoche1@ yahoo.com> Cc: Chris Farrell <cfarrell7@nyc. rr.com>; NewPacifica@ yahoogroups. com; PacificaRadiowaves@ yahoogroups. com; LasiewiczN@aol. com; jdemaegt@sbcglobal. net; rocklandfriendsofwb ai@yahoogroups. com; freekpfk@yahoogroup s.com; fulcrumsofchange@ pacificana. org Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 9:46:57 PM Subject: [NewPacifica] Re: Do you have the slightest idea what you are talking about? Kevin "Imagine, if you will, rising earlier than the sun, eating a mere "snack"- lacking essentially all nutritional value - and trekking miles to toil in the unforgiving climate of the southern states, and laboring until the sun once again slipped under the horizon. Clad only in the rags your master provided (perhaps years ago), you begin walking in the dark the miles to your "home." As described by the writers Jacob Stroyer and Josiah Henson, this "home" was actually a mere thatched roof, that you built with your own hands, held up by pathetic walls, over a dirt floor and you shared this tiny space with another family. Upon return to "home," once again you eat the meager rations you were provided, and fall into bed only to begin again the next day. Day in and day out you faced brutality by your master, unbearable labor, and slow starvation, and watched your family do the same. Such was the life of a slave in the antebellum south: relentless, unforgiving, and tragic. " this is an excerpt from the passage I sent to you earlier http://www.free- essays.us/ dbase/d4/ seg177.shtml which you apparently did not read. Starvation - including starvation to death - was one of many depredations suffered by enslaved Africans in the Americas, the vaunted 'rationality' of the plantation owner notwithstanding. Joe W. On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Kevin White <cuitlacoche1@ yahoo.com> wrote: > On the slave ship, yes. But a slave, throughout human history, was a > commdity just like cattle. No rational person would starve their cattle. > How > would the plantation work if you kept cruelly destroying your investment. > > In the modern period, there are so many wage slaves to take you're place > that this is not a concern. And if you're earning eight dollars an hour, > if > you can't get sick or you're homeless. You can't get fired without having > another job, because if you can't pay your rent, you're homeless. Once you > get dirty, no one will hire you. > > Wage slavery in many ways, not all, is worse than traditional slavery. > > K > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Chris Farrell <cfarrell7@nyc. rr.com> > To: Kevin White <cuitlacoche1@ yahoo.com> > Cc: wanzala@gmail. com; NewPacifica@ yahoogroups. com; > PacificaRadiowaves@ yahoogroups. com; LasiewiczN@aol. com; > jdemaegt@sbcglobal. net; rocklandfriendsofwb ai@yahoogroups. com; > freekpfk@yahoogroup s.com; fulcrumsofchange@ pacificana. org > Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 6:55:59 PM > Subject: Do you have the slightest idea what you are talking about? > > Do you want to provide some verification for that claim "the slave never > starved to death." (Begin you answer with the Middle Passage, as it was > my understanding that starvation was a leading cause of death on the > slave ship.) > > > Kevin White wrote: >> You are reading far more than I'm saying. I'm pointing out that modern >> wage slavery is far worse than ante-bellum slavery. The slave never >> starved >> to death. The modern wage slave can starve to death. Starving to death is >> anti-humanizing in the extreme. >> >> K >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: "wanzala@gmail. com" <wanzala@gmail. com> >> To: NewPacifica@ yahoogroups. com; PacificaRadiowaves@ yahoogroups. com; >> LasiewiczN@aol. com; jdemaegt@sbcglobal. net; >> rocklandfriendsofwb ai@yahoogroups. com; freekpfk@yahoogroup s.com; >> fulcrumsofchange@ pacificana. org >> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 11:54:07 PM >> Subject: Re: [Fulcrumsofchange] [NewPacifica] Re: [PacificaRadiowaves ] >> Re: >> The Knight Report: A "cutting... >> >> What are you talking about? It is one thing to be condescending when you >> are right and making sense, quite another to be condescending while >> saying >> fooish things. Slavery in ante-bellum america was *dehumanising* above >> all >> else. Marriage of slaves was not recognized by law and the children of >> slaves became the property of the slave owner, not the children of the >> slaves. The obligation of the slave was to the slaveowner not his >> 'family'. >> Indeed there was no 'family' for africans in the american slavery system. >> I >> hope you are not serious or maybe up too late and not all there. Are you >> really saying that slavery in america was some kind of benevolent venture >> compared to modern day slavery or even ancient slavery? Ante-bellum >> slavery >> was a brutal and horrific system, it was a crime, punishable by death, to >> teach a slave to read. All this that I am writing should be passe, but >> apparently some people still walk around with some amazing >> misconceptions. >> >> Joe w. >> >> >> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kevin White <cuitlacoche1@ yahoo.com> >> >> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 21:29:13 >> To: <NewPacifica@ yahoogroups. com>; <PacificaRadiowaves@ yahoogroups. >> com>; >> <LasiewiczN@aol. com>; <jdemaegt@sbcglobal. net>; >> <rocklandfriendsofwb ai@yahoogroups. com>; <freekpfk@yahoogroup s.com>; >> <fulcrumsofchange@ pacificana. org> >> Subject: Re: [NewPacifica] Re: [PacificaRadiowaves ] Re: >> [Fulcrumsofchange] >> The Knight Report: A "cutting... >> >> >> "'His wife and kids?'" That depends on the slave owner, doesn't it? A >> slave is a valuable commodity. Despite the coloring of history, very few >> slave owners would beat their slaves to the point they can't do their >> task. >> The are owned. They are therefore fed and housed and maintained. >> >> The modern wage slave is not given that much care. They barely have >> health >> care. Their families are such under severe economic pressure that they >> often >> collapse. An America poor income baby's barely know their babydaddy. >> Their >> work is terribly mindless; and there's a terrible competition to keep the >> jobs; or else... >> >> Their hours are deliberately kept below 32 hours a week just so there's >> no >> danger that an "employee" as they're called ever gets insurance. >> >> A real slave would get health care just to protect the investment. Trust >> me on this. I'm a recent member of the wage slave class. I worked for a >> grocery store change a few years ago during a local recession. I have >> slept >> rough, outdoors on a picnic table more than once. Now, after Enron and >> the >> buy out of Compaq, I'm back in the middle class in a nice condo. But I >> know >> personally, on my own skin, what a wage slave feels like. >> >> I think, Joe, you need to look again at the real world issues and just >> not >> at the pleasant-to chant axioms one hears in college. I'm learning to >> love >> you, brother. You are doing some great work. But sometimes you need a >> small >> kick in the butt. >> >> K >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: "wanzala@gmail. com" <wanzala@gmail. com> >> To: Kevin White <cuitlacoche1@ yahoo.com>; >> PacificaRadiowaves@ yahoogroups. com; LasiewiczN@aol. com; >> jdemaegt@sbcglobal. net; NewPacifica@ yahoogroups. com; >> rocklandfriendsofwb ai@yahoogroups. com; freekpfk@yahoogroup s.com; >> fulcrumsofchange@ pacificana. org >> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 10:35:25 PM >> Subject: [NewPacifica] Re: [PacificaRadiowaves ] Re: [Fulcrumsofchange] >> The >> Knight Report: A "cutting... >> >> >> 'His wife and kids?' Which country and historical period? One of the key >> features of ante-bellum slavery was the systematic breaking up of >> families, >> breeding, beatings and other untold horrors. I see the point you are >> trying >> to make, but be careful with the breezy generalizations. >> >> There were indeed important qualitative differences in that slaves in >> antiquity and ante-bellum america were capital investments, like oxen or >> a >> combine harvester, and indeed slaves had specific agricultural skills >> which >> made them valuable. However, the similarity I was referring to was in >> human >> attitudes to people of other races. But these are fine academic points, I >> don't think that enslaved people in either that or the modern era saw/see >> that there was any difference. >> >> Joe w. >> >> P.s. Please post this response to the wbai and kpfk yahoo groups for me. >> Tx. >> >> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T >> ____________ _________ _________ __ >> From: Kevin White <cuitlacoche1@ yahoo.com> >> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 19:56:16 -0700 (PDT) >> To: <wanzala@gmail. com>; <PacificaRadiowaves @ yahoogroups. com>; >> <LasiewiczN@ aol. com>; <jdemaegt@sbcglobal . net>; <NewPacifica@ >> yahoogroups. >> com>; <rocklandfriendsofw b ai@yahoogroups. com>; <freekpfk@yahoogrou p >> s.com>; <fulcrumsofchange@ pacificana. org> >> Subject: Re: [PacificaRadiowaves ] Re: [Fulcrumsofchange] The Knight >> Report: A "cutting... >> >> Joe wrote: "The old slave trade was little different from the modern day >> slave trade." >> >> Yeah, today a slave might receive 8 dollars and hours. At least in the >> old >> days your wife and children got fed. In today's slave trade 8 dollars an >> hour barely buys a room you pay by the week. >> >> K >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: "wanzala@gmail. com" <wanzala@gmail. com> >> To: PacificaRadiowaves@ yahoogroups. com; cuitlacoche1@ yahoo.com; >> LasiewiczN@aol. com; jdemaegt@sbcglobal. net; NewPacifica@ yahoogroups. >> com; >> rocklandfriendsofwb ai@yahoogroups. com; freekpfk@yahoogroup s.com; >> fulcrumsofchange@ pacificana. org >> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 9:04:47 PM >> Subject: Re: [PacificaRadiowaves ] Re: [Fulcrumsofchange] The Knight >> Report: A "cutting... >> >> Indeed, for years before the advent of the slave trade, africans had done >> extensive trade with europe, mainly with portugal and mainly in gold. >> Ghana, >> where many of the slave ships departed, was known as the /Gold Coast. It >> was >> the need for cheap labor in the americas, that fueled the slave trade >> from >> africa, and for indentured laborer from england and especially ireland. >> So >> yes, racism did not engender the slave trade, it was an artifact of the >> slave trade, itself a component of the development of capitalism. Many of >> the former african gold traders later became slave traders - it was just >> business, and so yes, african merchants were just as complicit in the >> slave >> trade and its horrors, just as modern day african compradors exploit >> their >> fellow africans. The old slave trade was little different from the modern >> day slave trade. >> >> Joe w. >> >> >> >> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T >> ____________ _________ _________ __ >> From: WhitmanLS@cs. com >> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 21:06:07 EDT >> To: <PacificaRadiowaves @ yahoogroups. com>; <cuitlacoche1@ yahoo.com>; >> <LasiewiczN@ aol. com>; <jdemaegt@sbcglobal . net>; <NewPacifica@ >> yahoogroups. >> com>; <pacificaradiowaves @ yahoogroups. com>; <rocklandfriendsofw b >> ai@yahoogroups. com>; <freekpfk@yahoogrou p s.com>; <fulcrumsofchange@ >> pacificana. org> >> Subject: Re: [PacificaRadiowaves ] Re: [Fulcrumsofchange] The Knight >> Report: A "cutting... >> >> They developed their racisim also in order to justify their enslavement >> of Africans and natives of the "New World." >> >> Ray Meyer >> KPFA member >> >> >> >> >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ ________ >> Fulcrumsofchange mailing list >> Fulcrumsofchange@ pacificana. org >> http://lists. pacificana. org/listinfo. cgi/fulcrumsofch ange-pacificana. >> org >> >> >> >> >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ ________ >> Fulcrumsofchange mailing list >> Fulcrumsofchange@ pacificana. org >> http://lists. pacificana. org/listinfo. cgi/fulcrumsofch ange-pacificana. >> org >> >> >> > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ ________ Fulcrumsofchange mailing list Fulcrumsofchange@ pacificana. org http://lists. pacificana. org/listinfo. cgi/fulcrumsofch ange-pacificana. org