This is sickening. To have this self-indulgent fool, incapable of admitting error, muck up page after page of several listservers to the practical effect of excluding intelligent discussion of matters which are current and urgent, is disgusting. If he knows he's wrong but takes some kind of pride in not admitting it, he doesn't deserve further attention. If he does not know he's wrong, it's not likely anyhthing anyone says will teach him anything. Please, somebody pull the plug! --Frank LeFever --- On Tue, 7/15/08, Kevin White <cuitlacoche1@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > From: Kevin White <cuitlacoche1@xxxxxxxxx> > Subject: Re: [Fulcrumsofchange] Do you have the slightest idea what you are > talking about? > To: "Joseph Wanzala" <wanzala@xxxxxxxxx> > Cc: LasiewiczN@xxxxxxx, freekpfk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, > PacificaRadiowaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, NewPacifica@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, > rocklandfriendsofwbai@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, fulcrumsofchange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 12:36 AM > We have a class of people living on Ramen noodles in this > country right now. Only ..20 cents a meal. Deep fried > nutritional nothing with a sodium "flavor" pouch. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Joseph Wanzala <wanzala@xxxxxxxxx> > To: Kevin White <cuitlacoche1@xxxxxxxxx> > Cc: Chris Farrell <cfarrell7@xxxxxxxxxx>; > NewPacifica@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; > PacificaRadiowaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; LasiewiczN@xxxxxxx; > jdemaegt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; > rocklandfriendsofwbai@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; > freekpfk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; fulcrumsofchange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 9:46:57 PM > Subject: Re: Do you have the slightest idea what you are > talking about? > > Kevin "Imagine, if you will, rising earlier than the > sun, eating a mere > "snack"- lacking essentially all nutritional > value - and trekking > miles to toil in the unforgiving climate of the southern > states, and > laboring until the sun once again slipped under the > horizon. Clad only > in the rags your master provided (perhaps years ago), you > begin > walking in the dark the miles to your "home." As > described by the > writers Jacob Stroyer and Josiah Henson, this > "home" was actually a > mere thatched roof, that you built with your own hands, > held up by > pathetic walls, over a dirt floor and you shared this tiny > space with > another family. Upon return to "home," once again > you eat the meager > rations you were provided, and fall into bed only to begin > again the > next day. Day in and day out you faced brutality by your > master, > unbearable labor, and slow starvation, and watched your > family do the > same. Such was the life of a slave in the antebellum south: > relentless, unforgiving, and tragic. " > > this is an excerpt from the passage I sent to you earlier > http://www.free-essays.us/dbase/d4/seg177.shtml > which you apparently did not read. Starvation - including > starvation > to death - was one of many depredations suffered by > enslaved Africans > in the Americas, the vaunted 'rationality' of the > plantation owner > notwithstanding. > > Joe W. > > On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Kevin White > <cuitlacoche1@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > On the slave ship, yes. But a slave, throughout human > history, was a > > commdity just like cattle. No rational person would > starve their cattle. How > > would the plantation work if you kept cruelly > destroying your investment. > > > > In the modern period, there are so many wage slaves to > take you're place > > that this is not a concern. And if you're earning > eight dollars an hour, if > > you can't get sick or you're homeless. You > can't get fired without having > > another job, because if you can't pay your rent, > you're homeless. Once you > > get dirty, no one will hire you. > > > > Wage slavery in many ways, not all, is worse than > traditional slavery. > > > > K > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Chris Farrell <cfarrell7@xxxxxxxxxx> > > To: Kevin White <cuitlacoche1@xxxxxxxxx> > > Cc: wanzala@xxxxxxxxx; NewPacifica@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; > > PacificaRadiowaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; > LasiewiczN@xxxxxxx; > > jdemaegt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; > rocklandfriendsofwbai@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; > > freekpfk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; > fulcrumsofchange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 6:55:59 PM > > Subject: Do you have the slightest idea what you are > talking about? > > > > Do you want to provide some verification for that > claim "the slave never > > starved to death." (Begin you answer with the > Middle Passage, as it was > > my understanding that starvation was a leading cause > of death on the > > slave ship.) > > > > > > Kevin White wrote: > >> You are reading far more than I'm saying. > I'm pointing out that modern > >> wage slavery is far worse than ante-bellum > slavery. The slave never starved > >> to death. The modern wage slave can starve to > death. Starving to death is > >> anti-humanizing in the extreme. > >> > >> K > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ---- > >> From: "wanzala@xxxxxxxxx" > <wanzala@xxxxxxxxx> > >> To: NewPacifica@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; > PacificaRadiowaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; > >> LasiewiczN@xxxxxxx; jdemaegt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; > >> rocklandfriendsofwbai@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; > freekpfk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; > >> fulcrumsofchange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > >> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 11:54:07 PM > >> Subject: Re: [Fulcrumsofchange] [NewPacifica] Re: > [PacificaRadiowaves] Re: > >> The Knight Report: A "cutting... > >> > >> What are you talking about? It is one thing to be > condescending when you > >> are right and making sense, quite another to be > condescending while saying > >> fooish things. Slavery in ante-bellum america was > *dehumanising* above all > >> else. Marriage of slaves was not recognized by law > and the children of > >> slaves became the property of the slave owner, not > the children of the > >> slaves. The obligation of the slave was to the > slaveowner not his 'family'. > >> Indeed there was no 'family' for africans > in the american slavery system. I > >> hope you are not serious or maybe up too late and > not all there. Are you > >> really saying that slavery in america was some > kind of benevolent venture > >> compared to modern day slavery or even ancient > slavery? Ante-bellum slavery > >> was a brutal and horrific system, it was a crime, > punishable by death, to > >> teach a slave to read. All this that I am writing > should be passe, but > >> apparently some people still walk around with some > amazing misconceptions. > >> > >> Joe w. > >> > >> > >> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Kevin White <cuitlacoche1@xxxxxxxxx> > >> > >> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 21:29:13 > >> To: <NewPacifica@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; > <PacificaRadiowaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; > >> <LasiewiczN@xxxxxxx>; > <jdemaegt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; > >> <rocklandfriendsofwbai@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; > <freekpfk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; > >> <fulcrumsofchange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >> Subject: Re: [NewPacifica] Re: > [PacificaRadiowaves] Re: [Fulcrumsofchange] > >> The Knight Report: A "cutting... > >> > >> > >> "'His wife and kids?'" That > depends on the slave owner, doesn't it? A > >> slave is a valuable commodity. Despite the > coloring of history, very few > >> slave owners would beat their slaves to the point > they can't do their task. > >> The are owned. They are therefore fed and housed > and maintained. > >> > >> The modern wage slave is not given that much care. > They barely have health > >> care. Their families are such under severe > economic pressure that they often > >> collapse. An America poor income baby's barely > know their babydaddy. Their > >> work is terribly mindless; and there's a > terrible competition to keep the > >> jobs; or else... > >> > >> Their hours are deliberately kept below 32 hours a > week just so there's no > >> danger that an "employee" as they're > called ever gets insurance. > >> > >> A real slave would get health care just to protect > the investment. Trust > >> me on this. I'm a recent member of the wage > slave class. I worked for a > >> grocery store change a few years ago during a > local recession. I have slept > >> rough, outdoors on a picnic table more than once. > Now, after Enron and the > >> buy out of Compaq, I'm back in the middle > class in a nice condo. But I know > >> personally, on my own skin, what a wage slave > feels like. > >> > >> I think, Joe, you need to look again at the real > world issues and just not > >> at the pleasant-to chant axioms one hears in > college. I'm learning to love > >> you, brother. You are doing some great work. But > sometimes you need a small > >> kick in the butt. > >> > >> K > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ---- > >> From: "wanzala@xxxxxxxxx" > <wanzala@xxxxxxxxx> > >> To: Kevin White <cuitlacoche1@xxxxxxxxx>; > >> PacificaRadiowaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; > LasiewiczN@xxxxxxx; > >> jdemaegt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; > NewPacifica@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; > >> rocklandfriendsofwbai@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; > freekpfk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; > >> fulcrumsofchange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > >> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 10:35:25 PM > >> Subject: [NewPacifica] Re: [PacificaRadiowaves] > Re: [Fulcrumsofchange] The > >> Knight Report: A "cutting... > >> > >> > >> 'His wife and kids?' Which country and > historical period? One of the key > >> features of ante-bellum slavery was the systematic > breaking up of families, > >> breeding, beatings and other untold horrors. I see > the point you are trying > >> to make, but be careful with the breezy > generalizations. > >> > >> There were indeed important qualitative > differences in that slaves in > >> antiquity and ante-bellum america were capital > investments, like oxen or a > >> combine harvester, and indeed slaves had specific > agricultural skills which > >> made them valuable. However, the similarity I was > referring to was in human > >> attitudes to people of other races. But these are > fine academic points, I > >> don't think that enslaved people in either > that or the modern era saw/see > >> that there was any difference. > >> > >> Joe w. > >> > >> P.s. Please post this response to the wbai and > kpfk yahoo groups for me. > >> Tx. > >> > >> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Kevin White <cuitlacoche1@ > yahoo.com> > >> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 19:56:16 -0700 (PDT) > >> To: <wanzala@gmail. com>; > <PacificaRadiowaves@ yahoogroups. com>; > >> <LasiewiczN@aol. com>; > <jdemaegt@sbcglobal. net>; <NewPacifica@ > yahoogroups. > >> com>; <rocklandfriendsofwb ai@yahoogroups. > com>; <freekpfk@yahoogroup > >> s.com>; <fulcrumsofchange@ pacificana. > org> > >> Subject: Re: [PacificaRadiowaves ] Re: > [Fulcrumsofchange] The Knight > >> Report: A "cutting... > >> > >> Joe wrote: "The old slave trade was little > different from the modern day > >> slave trade." > >> > >> Yeah, today a slave might receive 8 dollars and > hours. At least in the old > >> days your wife and children got fed. In > today's slave trade 8 dollars an > >> hour barely buys a room you pay by the week. > >> > >> K > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ---- > >> From: "wanzala@gmail. com" > <wanzala@gmail. com> > >> To: PacificaRadiowaves@ yahoogroups. com; > cuitlacoche1@ yahoo.com; > >> LasiewiczN@aol. com; jdemaegt@sbcglobal. net; > NewPacifica@ yahoogroups. com; > >> rocklandfriendsofwb ai@yahoogroups. com; > freekpfk@yahoogroup s.com; > >> fulcrumsofchange@ pacificana. org > >> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 9:04:47 PM > >> Subject: Re: [PacificaRadiowaves ] Re: > [Fulcrumsofchange] The Knight > >> Report: A "cutting... > >> > >> Indeed, for years before the advent of the slave > trade, africans had done > >> extensive trade with europe, mainly with portugal > and mainly in gold. Ghana, > >> where many of the slave ships departed, was known > as the /Gold Coast. It was > >> the need for cheap labor in the americas, that > fueled the slave trade from > >> africa, and for indentured laborer from england > and especially ireland. So > >> yes, racism did not engender the slave trade, it > was an artifact of the > >> slave trade, itself a component of the development > of capitalism. Many of > >> the former african gold traders later became slave > traders - it was just > >> business, and so yes, african merchants were just > as complicit in the slave > >> trade and its horrors, just as modern day african > compradors exploit their > >> fellow africans. The old slave trade was little > different from the modern > >> day slave trade. > >> > >> Joe w. > >> > >> > >> > >> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > >> ________________________________ > >> From: WhitmanLS@cs. com > >> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 21:06:07 EDT > >> To: <PacificaRadiowaves@ yahoogroups. com>; > <cuitlacoche1@ yahoo.com>; > >> <LasiewiczN@aol. com>; > <jdemaegt@sbcglobal. net>; <NewPacifica@ > yahoogroups. > >> com>; <pacificaradiowaves@ yahoogroups. > com>; <rocklandfriendsofwb > >> ai@yahoogroups. com>; <freekpfk@yahoogroup > s.com>; <fulcrumsofchange@ > >> pacificana. org> > >> Subject: Re: [PacificaRadiowaves ] Re: > [Fulcrumsofchange] The Knight > >> Report: A "cutting... > >> > >> They developed their racisim also in order to > justify their enslavement > >> of Africans and natives of the "New > World." > >> > >> Ray Meyer > >> KPFA member > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Fulcrumsofchange mailing list > >> Fulcrumsofchange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > >> > http://lists.pacificana.org/listinfo.cgi/fulcrumsofchange-pacificana.org > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Fulcrumsofchange mailing list > >> Fulcrumsofchange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > >> > http://lists.pacificana.org/listinfo.cgi/fulcrumsofchange-pacificana.org > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Fulcrumsofchange mailing list > Fulcrumsofchange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > http://lists.pacificana.org/listinfo.cgi/fulcrumsofchange-pacificana.org