Lorraine, I can only speak authoritatively about myself, but I am confident that others probably feel similarly. I have not posted here for at least two years and Fred was one of the biggest reasons for that. Of course Fred was not physically preventing me from posting, nor am I intimidated by him. But I have only so much time and energy to devote to various lists and I decide which ones seem most productive. It did not seem productive to me to spend any time answering Fred's many calumnies, especially given the fact that you were already doing such a good job at that. And I doubt that more than 3 of 4 people ever took Fred seriously. But his presence on this list caused too many of the posts to be about him and refuting his many falsifications and slanders. There is a further element that my tale about the wedding tried to illustrate. That is that there was something truly filthy about Fred's presence here. It made you feel dirty just to look at this list, almost as if you had accidentally stumbled on a KKK list. Anyway, that was my reaction. Take if for what you will. I would rather dialogue with people who are respectful despite their disagreements and who at least have some relationship to facts and reality. Wouldn't you? Alex --- In NewPacifica@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "L. Mirza" <haq4u@xxxx> wrote: > > Alex,you are comparing apples and potatoes. If you > could give me one instance when fred or any other of > the over 500 subscribors on newpacifca prevented any > one on this list from posting, please share that with > us. To my knowledge the only one or ones with the > ability to control posts is/are the moderator or > moderators. > > If you've been on this list for a while then you know > I've been butting heads with fred from the get go, and > while he'd like to shut me up, so far he has not > succeeded. Only Pamela Sommers (or other moderatos if > there are any others) have/has that power. Same with > other die-hard JUC supporters from both coasts as well > as some zionists and supporters/hold-overs from the > former deposed regime. > > The only one, aside from the list moderator(s) with > the power to silence me on this list is ME. > > If someone is that intimidated by other posters who > can cause no harm then those individuals are quite > delicate/fragile creatures indeed! > > One can disrupt a wedding or gathering but can be > ignored or countered on an e-mail list. > > --- Alex Steinberg <alexthe@xxxx> wrote: > > > Lorraine, > > > > If you want to have productive discourse then you > > should create an > > atmosphere where that is possible. Sometimes that > > means removing > > someone from the list who is poisoning the > > atmosphere. Just like if > > you invite your friends to a wedding and one of the > > guests pisses in > > the sink you have that person removed. Now I suppose > > you could say > > that this boorish guest was not stopping anyone else > > from emjoying > > the festivities, but he sure put a damper (pun > > intended) on the > > event. > > > > Alex > > > > > > --- In NewPacifica@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "L. Mirza" > > <haq4u@xxxx> wrote: > > > > > > > > Now just how can any poster stop another from > > > posting? I never understand this rationalization. > > So > > > unless someone has some special equipment that > > freezes > > > others' keyboards or fingers that is a lame excuse > > for > > > not posting. So the only reason most of the over > > 500 > > > subscribed to this list don't post is that they > > choose > > > not to 1) read selected posts 2) choose not to > > post. > > > Period! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Pamela Somers <psomers@xxxx> wrote: > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Wendy, > > > > > > Two people have just said that they were driven > > away > > > bythe dominance of certain posters here, and I've > > > heard the same thingfrom others off-list for quite > > a > > > long time now. Of course you can'tblame the lackof > > > participation of others on 4 people, but I do > > think > > > the fact thatcertain posters tend to dominate the > > list > > > day after day is somehowconducive to others not > > > joining in the conversation. So why not askthose > > who > > > postconstantly to take a breather and give others > > a > > > chance to jump in?That's what I've been doing by > > > asking heavy posters to limit themselvesto a > > certain > > > number of posts a day. If nothing happens out of > > > that,well at least we'llfind out. Right now we > > have a > > > unique situation in which all theposters you > > mention, > > > who are not here presently either throughattrition > > or > > > from being held in abeyance for one reason or > > other, > > > willpossiblyprovide anopportunity by their absence > > for > > > other voices to be heard. This is ourchance to see > > ifa > > > different climate will foster new dialogs. You > > havea > > > point though,that since Pacifica is not in the > > same > > > kind of crisis as it was inbefore,many people > > don't > > > feel the same motivation to post. However the > > listhas > > > actually grownlarger than it ever was, so that > > says > > > something about interestin Pacifica (unless it's > > the > > > car). > > > Pam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wendy wrote: Thing is, guys, Fred and Jim > > > andNalini (and who else, Edwin?) were all here > > when we > > > had multiplehundreds of posters too. Seeing the > > drop > > > in interest re Pacificapolitics across the board, > > I > > > can say with some certainty that no onecan blame > > these > > > 4 for driving off but a small percentage. So many > > > usedto care but disintegrated into the void - I > > know > > > better than most thatis easier to know what is bad > > > then it is to know what to do next, andwhile > > grateful > > > that Pacifica is not in the midst of scandals so > > > greatthat we have hundreds posting here, I could > > also > > > say that input isneeded on a continuing basis. > > Where > > > is everyone, and if people arescared away by those > > > four, what's up with that? > > > > > > I continue to argue against removalsand > > suspensions, > > > whether I agree with those people removed or > > > suspendedor not. They are not the enemy, but the > > part > > > of the picture that weknow. > > > > > > wendy > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: PamelaSomers > > > To: NewPacifica@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > Sent:Sunday, January 01, 2006 6:21 PM > > > Subject:Re: [NewPacifica] Re: more personal > > > attacks > > > > > > > > > This is what I'm hoping for too, Alex! Thank you > > for > > > saying it. > > > > > > Pam > > > > > > Alex Steinberg wrote: > > > I just wanted to add my congratulations to those > > of > > > Jaimie and others. I haven't posted on this list > > in a > > > couple of years and hardly ever look at it because > > of > > > the garbage from Fred and a couple of others. > > Let's > > > hope for a return to civil and productive dialogue > > on > > > this list and elsewhere in the coming year.Alex > > > Steinberg--- In NewPacifica@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, > > "James > > > Ross" <jross@xxxx> wrote: > > > > > > HiI used to love this list. When it started it was > > > very educational. > > > > > > The > > > > > > archives are a treasure.Then about 3 years ago it > > lost > > > something - there were more attacks,off-topic > > posts, > > > pointless threads, etc. Since then I don't come > > > > > > > > here > > > > > > very often. A lot of the interesting people from > > past > > > years don't > > > > > > come > > > > > > here very often either.I strongly believe the > > > moderator has the right and duty to removepeople > > who > > > detract from the list. It's like a party - guests > > > whoinsult everyone and start fights have to go > > (unless > > > that is thepurpose of the party).It is not a free > > > speech issue, in my mind - Fred has plenty > > > ofopportunity to express himself. If he wants, he > > can > > > start his ownyahoo group.Jamie(who has recently > > been > > > called a racist, a cop, and a friend of > > > > > > agents > > > > > > by Fred on the Rockland WBAI list)--- In > > > NewPacifica@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "L. Mirza" > > <haq4u@xxxx> > > > wrote: > > > > > > Yes, true, but I still uphold fred's right to > > > freelyexpress his stupidity as his assertions are > > > alwayseasy to challenge and counter.However, as > > the > > > moderator of this list, I alsounderstand your > > right to > > > make the decisions about thislist. NewPacifica is > > > afterall, not an offical Pacificae-list but > > started by > > > private individuals, such asyourself, and > > therefore > > > the calls are yours to make. Irespect that and > > accept > > > that too. Hard to balance freespeech of the > > > subscribers, and the right of those whohave taken > > the > > > initiative to start and maintain theselists to > > > determine the rules. Others who disagree withthe > > way a > > > list is run are free to leave and even starta list > > of > > > their own.--- Pamela Somers <psomers@xxxx> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Loraine,You are right in your agreement that many > > of > > > Fred'sposts contain -- and I couldn't have said > > it > > > any better -- "purepersonal attacks" and "outright > > > slander". And that will not be toleratedhere in > > the > > > name of free speech.PamelaL. Mirza wrote: > > > > > > Well fred, now it's time for me to stand up for > > > > > > > > > > > your > > > > > > right to express your nonesence in the name of > > > freespeech on this list or anywhere else in the > > > world.This despite my agreement that many of your > > > posts > > > > > > are > > > > > > pure personal attacks, blantantly racist and > > > oftenvulgar and outright slander. --- Pamela > > Somers > > > <psomers@xxxx> > > wrote:--------------------------------- > > > Fred,I'm suspending your posting privileges for > > now, > > > > > > > > > until > > > > > > I can decidewhether or not to ban you from the > > > > > > > > > > > list, > > > > > > for your racist posts and personal attacks such as > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > one below.Pamelasiddharta2@xxxx: In a > > message > > > > > > > > > dated > > > > > > 12/17/2005 10:35:03 A.M. Eastern > > > StandardTime,cmcb007@xxxx writes: This is the > > kind > > > of personal attack that > > > > > > should > > > > > > not be allowedon this or any list that attempts > > > topromote dialogue. That thespeaker is racist we > > > > > > > > > > > know: > > > > > > this is the same person who called SteveBrown > > > a"F*%#ing Zionist pig," so we know that Fred is > > > ignorant notonly of Steve's politics (and I > > suspect > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > lot of other things he claimsto be expert in) but > > > > > > > > > > > also > > > > > > of the fundamentals of civil discourse. He > > > > > > > > iscorrect: > > > > > > he should have been removed for the quantity, not > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > mentionthe quality, of his posts long ago. > > > > > Carolyn Birden Reply: I love Ms Birden > > > because she's so easy to debatewith. She's > > definitely > > > right on 2 things. My opinion > > > > > > is > > > > > > that Mr.Brown is a zionist provocateur and, as > > aproof, > > > I offer that headvocated for the accession > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > Mike Feder, another known zionist to theGM > > position > > > > > > > > > at > > > > > > BAI. Zionists will never be in power > > > atPacificabecause they are allied with the > > > extremereligious right. Even somewhite people now > > > > > > > > > > > understand > > > > > > that since they are being challenged intheir > > > beliefthat their own ancestors may have been > > > otherthanmonkeys. Mr Brown is a peddler and a > > > > > > > > > > > marketeer, > > > > > > he has the opinionsthat please his audience. But > > > > > > > > > > > his > > > > > > methods of calling African > > > Americans"Blacknats"(understand "Malcolm X is a > > bad > > > person") hadhimuncovered. I was told that his > > > internet > > > > > > rantings > > > > > > have been collectedand bound for posterity. > > > > > > > > Calling > > > > > > black people racists is a method ofthe Zionists. > > > > > > > > > > > The > > > > > > Zionists masqueraded as socialists in the 50s > > and60sin > > > order to enlist many Jewish intellectuals > > > butprogressively throughthe years they have > > morphed > > > > > > > > > back > > > > > > into the extreme racist andcolonialist ideology > > > > > > > > > > > which > > > > > > they modeled on their observation > > ofGermannationalism, > > > which was contemporary to theirmovement and > > > aspirations. Zionism is the main > > > > > > product > > > > > > of Jewish bourgeois nationalism and itadvocates > > > theconversion of an entire people from a > > > levantinefolkorigin to a nation granted an > > ethnically > > > > > > > > > cleansed > > > > > > land and will,in return, spread the joy of > > > theirmiraculous metamorphosis into a 5000year old > > > whiteskin European clone. Mr. Brown and > > > hismethodicalattacks on black people have the same > > > stampandcharacteristics of the attacks which were > > made > > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > movements of color inthe 1970s, which we now know > > > > > > > > > > > had > > > > > > the active assistance of Zionist molesposing as > > > > > > > > > > > Jewish > > > > > > leftists. If it smells like a rat.... I also > > > characterized Mr. Brown as a pig and I > > > > > > stand > > > > > > by thatimage. At the farm, the pig is the only > > > > > > > > > > > animal > > > > > > which has no naturalfear of humans and will come > > toyou > > > smelling you everywhere. Mr. Brownis very > > wellknown > > > for is provocative antics in BAI > > > relatedmeetings,coming right to the face of his > > > targets > > > > > > (in > > > > > > one case, less than a footaway) and > > snappingrepetitive > > > flash photography to disorient > > > > > > thesubject. > > > > > > He has published unauthorized photos of mine on > > > theinternet,although I must admit, some of the > > > photosmade me look quite handsomesince he uses > > > veryexpensive cameras which his vast fortune > > affords > > > > > > > > > him. > > > > > > In summary, I maintain my statement and opinion > > > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > Mr. Brownis no Charlie Brown. I believe him to be > > > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > Zionist plant targetingpeople of color as his > > > > > > > > > > > primary > > > > > > mission to remove the most radicalcomponent of > > > thisbeloved station. To his defense, Mr. Brown is > > > > > > > > > > > notthe > > > > > > only one. The hijackers has a similar goal but > > > > > > > > > > > were > > > > > > moved byanother puppeteer, the liberal democrats. > > > > > > > > > > > As > > > > > > for his performance as afarm animal, no one > > > everaccused me of hating fellow living > > creatures,since > > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > am after all a vegetarian. But when a pig gets > > > > > > > > > > > pesky > > > > > > andsmells in places we do not wish to be, a > > farmerwill > > > tell you that afirm kick in a soft rear side > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > in order. That's what he got andthat's what > > > hedeserved. He can still sit on his comfortable > > > > > > > > > > > bacon. > > > > > > But I have to warn others to beware of his soft > > > > > > > > > > > spoken > > > > > > approach. Pigsare known to have very little > > > selfrespect and to steal your lunch whenyou look > > away > > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > them. As for dialogue Ms Birden, you know I am > > one > > > of > > > > > > your > > > > > > fans andwill always respond to you in kind, if > > > notalways kindly. But who saysthat a true debate > > has > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > be kind. To me, you are just a person,nothing > > > > > > > > > > > more, > > > > > > nothing less. The only thing I detest is > > yourmethods. > > > It is also my stance in life to tell > > > > > > people > > > > > > what I see in them. What Isee in you, Ms > > Birdenfloods > > > me with regrets which I express byexhorting > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > to reform yourself and stop agitating > > > foroutsideinterests. Most people I know think of > > > youwith compassion. I suggestyou need the expert > > > > > > > > > > > hands > > > > > > of a professional massage therapist, someoneto > > > > > > > > > > > relax > > > > > > this angst you have about people you want to > > > > > > > > destroy > > > > > > for someobscure reasons. Give it a try. Fred N. > > New > > > Pacifica Working > > > Grouphttp://www.egroups.com/group/NewPacifica'Save > > Our > > > Stations!' --------------------------------- > > YAHOO! > > > GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "NewPacifica" on > > the > > > web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an > > email > > > > > > > > > to: > > > > > > NewPacifica-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Your > > use > > > of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > > > > > > Yahoo! > > > > > > Terms of Service. > > > ---------------------------------Loraine= = = = = > > = = > > > = = = = Read "Internment Camps of Bangladesh," by > > > Loraine > > > > > > Mirza > > > > > > Published by Crescent International Newspapers, > > > > > > > > > > > Inc. > > > > > > 300 Steelcase Road West, Unit 8, Markham, Ontario, > > > > > > > > > > > Canada L3R 2W2 > > > > > > "The story of a long-suffering people told with > > > > > > > > > > > compassion and sensitivity. All who care for > > > justicemust read this book. Loraine Mirza, an > > > AmericanMuslim print and broadcast journalist, has > > > writtenthis remarkable account of the > > > 'StrandedPakistanis,' trapped in internment camps > > > inBangladesh since 1972." (Zafar Bangash, Director > > > ofInstitute of Contemporary Islamic Thought.) > > > > > > > > For more information:e-mail: haq_for_u@xxxx > > > > > info@xxxx crescent@xxxx > > > crescent.uk@xxxx web sites: > > > > > > www.statelesspeopleinbangladesh.net > > > > > > www.OBATHelpers.org > > > > > www.muslimedia.com www.ihrc.orgNew > > > Pacifica Working > > > Grouphttp://www.egroups.com/group/NewPacifica'Save > > Our > > > Stations!' Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups > > > Sponsor--------------------~--> Give at-risk > > students > > > the materials they need tosucceed at > > DonorsChoose.org! > > > > > > > > > > > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/SBefZD/LpQLAA/E2hLAA/xYTolB/TM > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > ---~-> > > > > > > New Pacifica Working > > > Grouphttp://www.egroups.com/group/NewPacifica'Save > > Our > > > Stations!' Yahoo! Groups Links > > > NewPacifica-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > > > Loraine= = = = = = = = = = = Read "Internment > > Camps of > > > Bangladesh," by Loraine MirzaPublished by Crescent > > > International Newspapers, Inc.300 Steelcase Road > > West, > > > Unit 8, Markham, Ontario, Canada L3R 2W2"The story > > of > > > a long-suffering people told with compassion and > > > > > > > > sensitivity. All who care for justice must read > > this > > > book. LoraineMirza, an American Muslim print and > > > broadcast journalist, has > > > > > > written > > > > > > this remarkable account of the 'Stranded > > Pakistanis,' > > > trapped ininternment camps in Bangladesh since > > 1972." > > > (Zafar Bangash, > > > > > > Director > > > > > > of Institute of Contemporary Islamic Thought.) > > > > > > For more information:e-mail: haq_for_u@xxxx > > > > > info@xxxx crescent@xxxx > > > crescent.uk@xxxx web sites: > > > www.statelesspeopleinbangladesh.net > > > > > www.OBATHelpers.org > > > www.muslimedia.com www.ihrc.org > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > --------------------~--> Clean water saves lives. > > > Help make water safe for our > > > > > > children.http://us.click.yahoo.com/CHhStB/VREMAA/E2hLAA/xYTolB/TM-- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------~- > > > > New Pacifica Working > > > Grouphttp://www.egroups.com/group/NewPacifica'Save > > Our > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > New Pacifica Working Group > > > http://www.egroups.com/group/NewPacifica > > > 'Save Our Stations!' > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "NewPacifica" on the web. > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email > > to: > > > NewPacifica-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > > Yahoo! > > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Loraine > > > = = = = = = = = = = = > > > Read "Internment Camps of Bangladesh," by Loraine > > Mirza > > > Published by Crescent International Newspapers, > > Inc. > > > 300 Steelcase Road West, Unit 8, Markham, Ontario, > > Canada L3R 2W2 > > > "The story of a long-suffering people told with > > compassion and > > sensitivity. All who care for justice must read this > > book. Loraine > > Mirza, an American Muslim print and broadcast > > journalist, has > > written this remarkable account of the 'Stranded > > Pakistanis,' > > trapped in internment camps in Bangladesh since > > 1972." (Zafar > > Bangash, Director of Institute of Contemporary > > Islamic Thought.) > > > For more information: > > > e-mail: haq_for_u@xxxx > > > info@xxxx > > > crescent@xxxx > > > crescent.uk@xxxx > > > Visit web sites: > > www.statelesspeopleinbangladesh.net > > > www.OBATHelpers.org > > > www.muslimedia.com > > > www.ihrc.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > --------------------~--> > > Clean water saves lives. Help make water safe for > > our children. > > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/CHhStB/VREMAA/E2hLAA/xYTolB/TM > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ~-> > > > > > > New Pacifica Working Group > > http://www.egroups.com/group/NewPacifica > > 'Save Our Stations!' > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > NewPacifica-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > > > > > > > > > > Loraine > = = = = = = = = = = = > Read "Internment Camps of Bangladesh," by Loraine Mirza > Published by Crescent International Newspapers, Inc. > 300 Steelcase Road West, Unit 8, Markham, Ontario, Canada L3R 2W2 > "The story of a long-suffering people told with compassion and sensitivity. All who care for justice must read this book. Loraine Mirza, an American Muslim print and broadcast journalist, has written this remarkable account of the 'Stranded Pakistanis,' trapped in internment camps in Bangladesh since 1972." (Zafar Bangash, Director of Institute of Contemporary Islamic Thought.) > For more information: > e-mail: haq_for_u@xxxx > info@xxxx > crescent@xxxx > crescent.uk@xxxx > Visit web sites: www.statelesspeopleinbangladesh.net > www.OBATHelpers.org > www.muslimedia.com > www.ihrc.org > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Clean water saves lives. Help make water safe for our children. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CHhStB/VREMAA/E2hLAA/xYTolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> New Pacifica Working Group http://www.egroups.com/group/NewPacifica 'Save Our Stations!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewPacifica/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: NewPacifica-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/