HEAR HEAR! Frank LeFever <fflefever@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: Joe is talking about what people do. Melinda is talking about what people SHOULD do. By talking about what people ACTUALLY do, we have some chance of understanding life and politics well enough to make some useful choices. Talking about what people SHOULD do and confusing this with what people ACTUALLY do is one expression of the prerequesite for Pacifica membership I cited just recently. Talking about what people "should" do is a worthwhile activity, but not if people begin to confuse what people SHOULD do with what people ACTUALLY do. That confusion leads to incalcuable errors in everyday life and in politics, ultimate inneffectualness and penultimate frustration or despair--unless one is so well-practiced in the art of "denying reality" that failure is never recognized. --Frank LeFever ======================================================== --- In NewPacifica@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, wanzala@... wrote: > > I read what you wrote, of course the decisions he made are important. You are simply refusing to acknowledge that his race is a factor one way or another. > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: Melinda Iley-Dohn <Iley_dohn@...> > > Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:45:01 > To:NewPacifica@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: [NewPacifica] Africans are Hip to The Obama Hype.. > > > I give up. You apparently didn't read what I said. > > I said that what is important is the decisions he has made in life. How you can > chose to misread this can only indicate that you are not reading, you are > interrpreting this through your own bias. I am tired of your spin on what I am saying. > > > > > wanzala@... wrote: You are trying to make the issue who he was conceived by. That is beside the point, the press does not even dwell on it very much. What is relevant here is that he is a black man in america, an america that remains racist (and sexist). That is a hard fact. He is perceived differently than african-americans because his background is different and africans born in america, like himself come across differently to white americans than african-americans. I see this in my personal experience everyday. Some white americans like to pretend that his race is not an issue, but in fact it is - albeit in a positive way. > > We (some of us anyway) spent much of the eighties and nineties debating over the african-ness or lack thereof of ancient eygypt and greece, whether or not africans were in the americas long before columbus, speculating as to which past american presidents were black and so on. Race matters now as much as it does then. There has been no quantum leap forward beyond race, obama's postmodernity notwithstanding. > > Joe w. > > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: Melinda Iley-Dohn > > Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:13:32 > To:NewPacifica@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: [NewPacifica] Africans are Hip to The Obama Hype.. > > > > Joe, > > I stated that as an obsurd thought. I am not saying anything about his appeal based on his race. It's a part of who he is but that was not the point that I was making in ny note, > > I am saying that in this particular race that in addition to his stregnths that he is running against some really weighted down people too. Many times historically Americans have voted against other candidates as much as they have voted for somebody. Voting for him > based on his race is actually a disservice to Mr. Obama. He had nothing to do with his > choice of parents. > > He has amazing qualifications as the result of years of hard work. He has spent years of working for the rights of disadvantaged Americans,he has a proven ability to motivate Americans to get out of this fear laced mental attitude that we have had for years and he has done a good job as a Senator. He's capable based on who he is and that has to do with his own efforts not who he was concieved by. > > Melinda > > > > > wanzala@... wrote: Are you really serious that people would vote for barack obama if he was a frog? Are you really saying that people's subjective view of barack obama as a mixed race half-african man plays absolutely no role in his appeal to them? if so, you are denying reality. > > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: Melinda Iley-Dohn > > Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:23:31 > To:NewPacifica@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: [NewPacifica] Africans are Hip to The Obama Hype.. > > > Thank you for that thought. SURPRISE! I spent nine years of my professional life working > for the Gallup Organization! Guess what I used to do for a living? Yep. I called people RIGHT > in the middle of dinner for a paycheck. Other than the biased push polls they would never > ask it that way. It would be something like.... > > As you may be aware, Barack Obama has a father who was born in Kenya. Based on this > would you be Very likely Somewhat Likely, Neither Likely nor Unlikely Somewhat Unlikely or Very Unlikely to vote for him based on this? If there are such stats from a legitimate > company I would like to know them and the demos for the sampling involved. In market > research it's all about methodology. Garbage in and garbage out. > > I am not saying that we are color blind. I like to think that we have evolved. One of the > first lessons I learned from my work was that the majority of the preconcieved notions > of American's views is really off base. I was shocked how often that people who called > themselves VERY Conservative were Pro-Choice. I can also tell you that based on > what I heard overall that Clinton was not elected by Democrats. He got a lot of people > who were sick of GHWBush and they felt left out by the far right. > > A ,memorable man told me that he was shocked by that "Revival that they had in Houston" > in reference to the Republican Convention that year. Phyllis Schafly and Jerry Falwell > were clearly seen behind the speakers on the front dias. He said he was voting for > Clinton because he felt his party had left him behind. I would wager that many who are sick > of this Jr. version will be looking for a different candidate. > > Check out the divesity of voters who have overwhelmingly voted for him in the primaries so far. I would wager that Obama would get votes from many of them if he was a frog just > because of the remaining field. We have a man who is kissing up to the Bush policies, > a man who wants to rewrite the Constitution based on his views of what God is telling him > and a woman whose husband's bad behavior made us ignore security issues because we were too busy arguing about a blue dress. > > We NEED Obama to get back on track. > > Melinda > Who is glad that I no longer do that > > wanzala@... wrote: Are you really suggesting that Americans have suddenly become color blind and gender blind? And the fact that his father was kenyan is an objective factor in how he is perceived. Even mainstream pollsters make a point of asking voters what role his race plays in their vote - because it is a real issue. > > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: Melinda Iley-Dohn > > Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:32:33 > To:NewPacifica@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: [NewPacifica] Africans are Hip to The Obama Hype.. > > > Voters are none the less voting for Barack Obama not his father or his heritage. > The last time I checked Americans only get to vote. I think that Obama will go > a long way toward soothing the burned nerves of our very pissed off allies > internationally but we elect our own President they do not. > > .Hillary has more baggage than LaGuardia and I would sooner see my Siamese elected than McCain or Huckabee. > > wanzala@... wrote: I'll tell you so what:- > > It is extremely signficant that barack obama's father was an african, just as it would have been if his father had been african-american. It is also significant that hilary clinton is a woman, and significant that rudy guiliani is italian american. Race and gender biases, both positive and negative are playing a big part in this election. > > That barack hussein obama is partly african, and that part of his african heritage is also extremely significant to people of the rest of the world, especially africa and the middle east who will be affected by the outcome of this election almost as much as americans will. > > You cannot deny the role of race, gender and how these factors continue to play a role in american political reality. > > Joe w. > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: Melinda Iley-Dohn > > Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:33:07 > To:NewPacifica@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: [NewPacifica] Africans are Hip to The Obama Hype.. > > > Obama was born in Hawaii and reared in the US for the most part. My best friend's Mom was born in Morrocco.Come on.So his father is African so what? I assure you my lifelong friend may serve Morrocan food but she is a US citizen as is Obama. His name is African and he is proud of his heritage (as is my friend), but they are both Americans. > > Obama is running based on his stregnths and his policies not his father's citizenship. > To focus on his father who isn't a part of his campaign, is as stupid as the people....like > my OWN Mom (whose Dad was Irish) ,who insisted that she wouldn't vote for Kennedy > because he was a Catholic. Come on. Let's get real here. If anybody wants to argue against > Obama, do it based on him not his father. > > Joseph Wanzala wrote: > > but then, we would not even be talking about Mr. Obama if he were not beholden to the vampires.... so, while I share all the criticisms, it might also be a good idea to examine why he has such broad appeal and what he is all about beneath the surface. e.g. what does the Obama phenomenon say about the power struggles that are going on amongst the ruling elite, pwogs tend to ignore these battles (a big reason why many pwogs, e.g. chomsky, cockburn dismiss the question of who assasinated JFK - ie, "who cares, after all he was part of the elite anyways"). > > I also find the distinction that he is an African who is American as opposed to being an African-American - dubious. I am well aware from personal experience that it is an important distinction, however I thought a central part of the Black Nationalist/Pan-Africanist project (which have their roots in the new world, specifically the Carribean) to minimize rather than emphasize this distinction? To be sure, he has done an end-run around the historical legacy of Black American political leadership, but at the same time, black American leaders have been aggressively destroyed (Malcolm X, MLK etc) or thoroughly co-opted (Jesse Jackson, Andrew Young and Co.) > > there is also the issue of how White Americans perceive Africans versus Black Americans - which I can also speak to from personal experience. > > So... anyway, just some thoughts > > more later, > > Joe W. > > > > On Feb 9, 2008 10:58 PM, Emmett Abati Doe com> wrote: > > > > > > > by Larry Pinkney at: http://www.blackcommentator.com/ > > > Cover Story > Barack Obama and the Euphoria of Madness > Keeping It Real > By Larry Pinkney > BC Editorial Board > > > > > > > Those who ignore reality and the lessons of history do so at their own peril. Ignoring reality, whether in a state of euphoria or not, is nonetheless a sure recipe for disaster. > It is both sad and simultaneously horribly fascinating to observe so many euphorically pinning their hopes and dreams on Barack Obama, a chameleon who speaks liberally of "change" but who is, himself, beholden to the very same blood-sucking corporate vampires (including Lockheed and others) who are ravaging the peoples of America, and the entire planet. It seems we have moved euphemistically from Dracula to a corporately repackaged Blackula in the person of Barack Obama. In the very name of "change," Obama is moving America euphorically backwards. > All of America, but most especially we Black, Brown, and Red peoples, need to pay heed to the unfolding debacle known as the "Obama phenomenon." This so-called "phenomenon" is propelled by blind euphoria, while being steeped in double-speak and disinformation. The danger in this is self-evident. > Never mind that Barack Obama is a stalwart supporter of apartheid / corporate Zionism and is beholden to the Zionist corporate lobby in the US, which wags the people of America as a whole to the tune of billions upon billions of dollars from the coffers of this nation. It should be noted that Barack Obama made it quite clear in The Jerusalem Post newspaper (Israel) of January 29, 2008, that the Palestinian people whose lands are, and have long been, illegally and militarily occupied by Israel, "do not have the right of return." Similar to the wanton genocide that America carried out against the indigenous, so-called "Indian" peoples on this North American continent under the cover of Manifest Destiny, so it is that the Zionists are simultaneously carrying out de facto apartheid and genocide against the Palestinian people. Black, Red, and Brown peoples should pay close attention to this horrible reality, which is supported by Barack Obama, and no amount of Obama double-speak can obfuscate this outrage. Black Americans must realize unequivocally that every Israeli or Jewish person is not necessarily a Zionist, just as every German was not necessarily a Nazi (Adolph Hitler in fact also murdered thousands of non-Jewish Germans who opposed him). However, make no mistake about this: Nazism, Zionism, and apartheid are inextricably tied together. Moreover, it should be clearly understood that Semitic peoples include both Arab and Jewish peoples, including Palestinians. Thus, the constant tactic of depicting any who criticize the actions of Zionists as being "anti-Semitic," is inaccurate, diversionary, and ridiculous. Barack Obama is deeply beholden to apartheid / corporate Zionism at the expense of the Palestinian people and peace with justice throughout the so-called Middle East. > Never mind that Barack Obama, contrary to corporate myth, was never in reality a so-called grassroots, political, "community activist," but was in fact a financially paid, funded, and comfortable opportunist who did not lay his life on the line in any serious manner for disenfranchised people. Moreover, his alleged "volunteer" work in Chicago was anything but the stuff of legend in serving the people, though one would never learn this from his current supporters in the corporate media. Indeed, Barack Obama is himself the beneficiary of the many serious and committed women and men grassroots, political, community activists who went before him, and who often paid for their activism by tortuous jail/prison time and/or death. Serious community activism is no joke and will never be hailed or supported by corporations or the corporate media. > Never mind that Barack Obama has indicated both verbally and in writing that he favors "unilateral" US military actions against other nations, which is both dangerously absurd and in direct contravention and flagrant violation of international law. Notwithstanding the constant double-speak of Barack Obama, his admiration for Ronald Reagan (who despised US working men and women and who unilaterally militarily invaded the tiny Black nation of Grenada), and his warm relationship with William Daley of the infamous and racist Daley political machine in Chicago, should, at bare minimum, give people of good will (of all colors) serious pause for thought. > Nevertheless, and despite all of the foregoing, there are those who insist, regarding Barack Obama: "At least he's black!" Is he? What is Blackness and what does it really mean in America? And how is being bamboozled, pimped, and disenfranchised by a black person any better than being emaciated by a person of any other color? Think about it as if your very life depends on it, because, ultimately, it may. > The January 31, 2008, Daily Sun of Nigeria, in an article entitled, "Barack Obama May Win, But He's No African American," poignantly stated, in relevant part: "There are several fundamental issues that must be clarified to understand the importance of Obama's candidacy. First of all, strictly speaking Barack Obama is not an African-American - but an African who is American. He's not a descendant of the enslaved Africans who built America without reward or respect for their contributions� But there is a side to his character that well-illustrates the differences between himself and the average 'Black American.' For instance, when speaking of his heritage he points proudly to his living relatives [in Kenya]� He doesn't have the burden or challenge of discussing how his ancestors overcame prejudice within the very society he's striving to rule. He doesn't have to refer to the disenfranchisement and dehumanization of his ancestors when he speaks of the legacy that he represents�" Nor does he have or relate to the collective suffering and ongoing struggle of a physically and emotionally brutalized Black America. > Many Black Americans and our Brown and Red sisters and brothers will, I fear, come to be deeply disappointed in Barack Obama, once he demonstrates who he really is. There will be no peace or justice under an Obama Presidency, should such come to pass. Even the majority of white Americans, with the exception of the corporate liberals and conservatives, may yet come to realize that Obama's interests are corporate interests; they are not the needs and interests of everyday people, who represent the overwhelming majority of this nation and the world. > It must be reiterated that the Democrat and Republican Parties have consistently sold out Black, Red, Brown, Yellow, and White peoples in America. There is no doubt that the blind euphoria being experienced by those who are presently not critically thinking - is also being experienced by the elite of the US corporate/military/media apparatus - except that their euphoria is not blind. It is callous, calculating, and cold-blooded. > We need to be about the business of thinking and acting outside the box and building political parties that are outside the box, parties that serve the economic, social, and political interests of the masses of people. This is precisely why the candidacy of former US Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney for President and the Power To The People Coalition is of such enormous importance for the present and for the future. This coalition is all about collectively laying the foundation for systemic change - which is the only way that we can enjoy real change. > Blind euphoria notwithstanding, those who ignore reality and the lessons of history, do so at their own peril. Now, more than ever, is the time to be critical thinkers, not blind followers. > BlackCommentator.com Editorial Board member, Larry Pinkney, is a veteran of the Black Panther Party, the former Minister of Interior of the Republic of New Africa, a former political prisoner and the only American to have successfully self-authored his civil/political rights case to the United Nations under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. For more about Larry Pinkney see the book, Saying No to Power: Autobiography of a 20th Century Activist and Thinker , by William Mandel [Introduction by Howard Zinn]. ( Click here to read excerpts from the book) Click here to contact Mr. Pinkney. > > > > > "Put Some Kegler's On It! > � It's Good For What Ails Ya!" ========================================================= ?Put Some Kegler?s On It! ? It?s Good For What Ails Ya!? www.OnePainFreeSolution.Biz --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.