In actual fact both drivers are considered to have responsibility and the civil case will probably be fought over "how much". Similarly with networks used as DDoS hosts, the cracker will still have primary responsibility, but the network operator may be found negligent as well because of not implementing Best Current Practice. This is where things like BCP0038 get sticky. Historically, if and operator of a device or service was "professional", they would know about Best Current Practices and ignorance would not be an excuse. Case law is slim in the Internet, which is why I am waiting for the first case to go to court. But certainly other kinds of businesses have had similar rulings. -----Original Message----- From: firewalls-owner@Lists.GNAC.NET [mailto:firewalls-owner@Lists.GNAC.NET]On Behalf Of dgillett@deepforest.org Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 18:41 To: firewalls@Lists.GNAC.NET Subject: Re: 3rd party liability Was RE: This is a must read document In most jurisdictions, the first principle is that all drivers have a responsibility to avoid collisions, and there is an explicit presumption that the overtaking driver has the better view of the situation, and thus the primary responsibility. EVEN if I fail to signal, you will have to convince the court that you had no opportunity to avoid the collision before significant liability will be passed to anyone else. A better analogy might be where a customer slips on the spilled milk in aisle 7 and breaks a leg. It may have been some other customer who spilled the milk, and none of the store staff *pushed* the customer who fell, but the business may be found negligent in allowing the hazard to persist on property under its control. David Gillett On 11 Jun 2001, at 13:03, Bill_Royds@pch.gc.ca wrote: > No. This is closer to saying that you changed lanes on the freeway > without signalling when I hit you from behind. You were negligent in > following a rule of the road so you are liable for some of the > damage. You didn't hit me but you are still responsible for the > accident. - [To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@lists.gnac.net with "unsubscribe firewalls" in the body of the message.]